tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1111229284977476511.post1167801297485122570..comments2023-07-02T01:18:22.626-07:00Comments on The WriteRunner: Critique FreakAndrew Rosenberghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09215333688753781447noreply@blogger.comBlogger20125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1111229284977476511.post-9285175492801179512010-08-13T13:40:12.928-07:002010-08-13T13:40:12.928-07:00I think an awful lot of critiquers are subconsciou...I think an awful lot of critiquers are subconsciously caught up in the teacher/student mode, and all the interpersonal "control" baggage that is involved there.<br><br>And some of them have real issues. It's like "I get to be teacher, and I'm the boss now, you have to sit there and take abuse just like I did!" Or more commonly, "My authority figure taught me this so I know it's absolutely true, and if you don't care as much as I do about this rule you're threatening my whole world view, so you MUST agree, you absolutely must!" <br><br>I think there is a little bit of that in everybody.The Daring Novelisthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01676188266569869059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1111229284977476511.post-74190175050617987492010-08-13T13:54:21.114-07:002010-08-13T13:54:21.114-07:00@Novelist: The problem is when the author rises to...@Novelist: The problem is when the author rises to the bait. I've had some really nasty critiquers tell me that my writing sucks right to my face. I totally want to tell them they're clueless, but you know, you can't reach everyone. Okay, <b>I</b> can't reach everyone. <br><br>I think authors really need to ask themselves why they are in a critique group if they can't handle a know-it-all literary rules drone.Andrew Rosenberghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09215333688753781447noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1111229284977476511.post-46237066358427198742010-08-13T14:59:01.971-07:002010-08-13T14:59:01.971-07:00I was in a group a few years ago that opted for a ...I was in a group a few years ago that opted for a three prong critique model everyone was supposed to try to follow. Say what you liked, say what bothered you, ask if the author might like a suggestion.<br><br>It worked to quell the drama because as an author, you could say, "No thanks, I like it how it is." and the discussion was closed. <br><br>On the other hand you could say, that a particular section was giving you trouble and you'd welcome some ideas.<br><br>Why anyone would submit a section to a critique group and not expect some type of criticism is beyound me, but there you have it. It was quite a large group and most of the time people did take advice...I think that given our group dynamic, it was a good call to have something in place.<br><br>Nothing spoils a cookie and coffee evening quicker than bickering.Raquel Byrneshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12870113745683162915noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1111229284977476511.post-26321501083161555892010-08-13T15:01:34.242-07:002010-08-13T15:01:34.242-07:00Great rules! I was resisting a little with #1 (but...Great rules! I was resisting a little with #1 (but with the exception of "explain" but not "defend"—a fine distinction most people miss!), but #2 covered it, I think.<br><br>Sorry your critique group experience was so . . . un-fun. I'm still trying to find the best critique group and system for me and my writing (and critiquing!) style.Jordan McCollumhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16523599384793856702noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1111229284977476511.post-31086660861868896002010-08-13T15:43:33.091-07:002010-08-13T15:43:33.091-07:00Holy crap! Makes me appreciate my critique group ...Holy crap! Makes me appreciate my critique group so much more. Sandwich method, everybody. Sandwich method.Liviahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15805379309049803903noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1111229284977476511.post-26450846056006149582010-08-13T16:36:29.250-07:002010-08-13T16:36:29.250-07:00When I was in a critique group, I had to work on t...When I was in a critique group, I had to work on the first one. It's hard not to defend one's writing, especially against claims like "this dream sequence just comes off as a rape scene" (Yeah, that happened once). But it can cause problems and we have to realize the reader is coming from a different angle, so they are saying what their reader response to the story was. Other people in the group had issues with this as well and one would often argue with me, telling me I was wrong and it's not fun. I'm no longer in that group.Dawn Embershttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00214560861614476799noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1111229284977476511.post-87916124582947046592010-08-13T17:33:00.300-07:002010-08-13T17:33:00.300-07:00@Raquel: Sounds like a great plan.@Jordan: Explain...@Raquel: Sounds like a great plan.<br><br>@Jordan: Explaining something is fine. I'm talking about not taking things personally, and not challenging the critiquer. <br><br>@Livia: Sounds delicious.<br><br>@Dawn: That person needs to read Law #2. Sometimes I think critiquers believe that their job is to help poor strugglin' lil' writer-child when it's really just for the author to find out what works, not to be schooled.Andrew Rosenberghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09215333688753781447noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1111229284977476511.post-68005624892275454352010-08-13T18:56:33.865-07:002010-08-13T18:56:33.865-07:00Which is why I preface my suggestions with "w...Which is why I preface my suggestions with "what I'd like to see is". The author may like the idea or not, but they know that's just my opinion. Like you say Andrew, the Author's vision is the only one that counts.<br><br>If you have to "defend" your submission, either you're not getting the concepts across, in that case you need to just take a hard look at it later; or the critiquers are just missing the point or trying to write it their own way. Either way, its not longer a productive discussion. Move on is right.<br><br>My ftf crit group is in the process of redefining what we want to get out of the group. Should be interesting to see specifically what everyone want to get from the group.<br><br>......dholeDonna Holehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08715849844092553699noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1111229284977476511.post-58001186204971346402010-08-13T21:19:01.065-07:002010-08-13T21:19:01.065-07:00I guess I was lucky that I started out in an extre...I guess I was lucky that I started out in an extremely advance critique group (the Clarion Workshop), so I've always been pretty blase about criticism. <br><br>There are ups and downs to every way of running one, and every set of rules. You can gain a lot of insight in cross-talk critique too. <br><br>I think, though, that one good personal rule is to only respond with questions. Remember that, while the author is actually always right about the work and the form it should take, the READER is always right about his or her reaction. So strive to understand it.The Daring Novelisthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01676188266569869059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1111229284977476511.post-47680781500556378902010-08-13T23:08:05.951-07:002010-08-13T23:08:05.951-07:00Wow! Horribly wrong is an understatement! The poin...Wow! Horribly wrong is an understatement! The point of a critique isn't to tear down the author or the person offering an opinion, so both were in the wrong.<br><br>Makes me appreciate my group. Although it's too large to have time for in-depth analyses, we have written policies in place that ask those critiquing to say something positive first... what aspect worked for them, or something they liked... then mention any problems... something specific that may be confusing, or awkward, etc., and finish with a helpful suggestion. The author may not explain or defend his work, or respond to a criticism, and while we often find that hard, it eliminates the possibility of arguments. In the end, the writers know they have the right to accept or ignore the critique and/or suggestions, but that they are opinions of their fellow writers worth considering.<br><br>When we submit work for critiquing we have to expect that others will have opinions that don't necessarily align with our own. "If you can't stand the heat don't go in the kitchen." :)careannhttp://careann.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1111229284977476511.post-3588517225340811322010-08-15T06:23:11.233-07:002010-08-15T06:23:11.233-07:00Good advice. taking criticism is a tough thing, es...Good advice. taking criticism is a tough thing, especially in writing because so much of yourself is invested in the work that it's hard to separate the critique of your work from your self.<br>My writing group is lovely. We offer support and helpful ways to improve. You can go and feel safe. <br>If there ever was a place where politeness and sensitivity should rule it's a writers' group.Cathy Webster (Olliffe)http://www.blogger.com/profile/12729578896443750402noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1111229284977476511.post-66325515302077886692010-08-16T11:44:30.863-07:002010-08-16T11:44:30.863-07:00Another thing that would have helped avoid the mel...Another thing that would have helped avoid the meltdown is to always be clear in commenting on only the work. NOT the person writing the work. There is a huge difference.Ghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00205101970873300772noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1111229284977476511.post-77709442613693297422010-08-16T12:02:07.051-07:002010-08-16T12:02:07.051-07:00@Donna: Exactly. If people don't "get&quo...@Donna: Exactly. If people don't "get" your work, then maybe you should ask yourself if it's really that well written. OTOH, sometimes people don't get it because it's an excerpt or missing some info, in which case it's fine to explain, just don't treat critiquers like idiots because they don't get it.<br><br>@Daring: I get that. But in critique groups, the critiquer's comments aren't always authentic because they are actively LOOKING for flaws, whereas a casual reader might not notice the same issues. As a critiquer, I'm looking for ways a piece is weak or can be improved, so I find things that aren't necessarily indicative of the overall value of the piece. <br><br>@careann: Yes, both were wrong. One of them could have taken the high road but neither chose to. And yes, why do people not think they'll receive criticism? <br><br>@Cathy: I agree...but there also needs to be a dose of honesty (on both sides). If something is terrible, it does no good to lie to the author about it. But if a critique is worthless, don't say that but at least thank the critiquer for their effort.<br><br>@G: It started out as just critique but ended up as a literary pissing contest over who was right. Useless.Andrew Rosenberghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09215333688753781447noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1111229284977476511.post-19662860601177925612010-08-16T18:01:01.801-07:002010-08-16T18:01:01.801-07:00Yikes.Yikes.Moses Siregar IIIhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14054458331242370871noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1111229284977476511.post-4954686779720063592010-08-18T11:07:08.085-07:002010-08-18T11:07:08.085-07:00Hi Andrew!How sad. That makes me sad. I was in a g...Hi Andrew!<br><br>How sad. That makes me sad. I was in a group where the piece was literary and I thought the same thing you did. But being that it was a crit group,the author took my crits with a cool head and the others pointed out that a literary piece follows a whole different set of rules.<br><br>True.<br><br>I feel that a writer needs to brace him/herself for crits if they are going to be in a crit group. Expect feedback. The writer can clarify, but if the message is lost on the reader, then the writer must reconsider.<br><br>Crit groups should help strengthen and build each other up. To help one another succeed. We as writers face enough doubt as it is.<br><br>Rule to remember as we go (even as bestsellers): you can please some of the people some of the time, but not all of the people all of the time.<br><br>My heart goes out to the lady that burst with tears. Really.<br><br>Oh, btw, I want YOU to come by and read my <a href="http://elizabethmueller.blogspot.com/2010/08/invasion-of-bloggy-snatchers.html" rel="nofollow">entry</a> for the bloggysnatchers blogfest. Tell me what you think!!!<br><br>Muahahahhaha!! >0)Elizabeth Muellerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06028099814857743134noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1111229284977476511.post-23580618073781077102010-08-19T00:32:53.615-07:002010-08-19T00:32:53.615-07:00This is truly scary, and the escalation was from b...This is truly scary, and the escalation was from both sides. Your advice is spot on, and deserves to be read by anyone who wants to be part of a critique group.Damyantihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04283371140346602856noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1111229284977476511.post-67747809853574477592010-08-19T20:33:13.920-07:002010-08-19T20:33:13.920-07:00If you don't want a critique, don't ask fo...If you don't want a critique, don't ask for one. I have received constructive and upsetting critiques and stupid critiques that point out the things their spell check picked up -- but the worst type are the critiques that tell me, "that was good, I liked it." Not helpful.<br><br>Funny side note: My mother, named Sue, is currently writing a series of short literary fiction stories that she describes as Garrison Keillor, but darker. She taught creative writing (in elementary school). There is no input I can give that she would take seriously. I don't know why she even asks me.<br>Lesson learned -- never give an honest critique to your mother. <br>Man, I hope she didn't cry.Erin Kane Spockhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05376851676240606472noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1111229284977476511.post-1276823035590758162010-08-20T08:23:46.935-07:002010-08-20T08:23:46.935-07:00@Moses: Yikes indeed@Elizabeth: Nice entry! I actu...@Moses: Yikes indeed<br><br>@Elizabeth: Nice entry! I actually don't believe lit fic follows "a different set of rules." Good storytelling is good storytelling no matter what the genre. Character development, conflict, etc all are still critical. Fanciful ramblings that mean nothing except to the author are not literary...it's self-indulgence. But yeah...there's no reason anyone should get mean about it and the author seemed to be a nice person...unlike the critiquer who was a bitch to be mild.<br><br>@Damyanti: I was afraid they would literally fight.<br><br>@Erin: Yup. I'm trying to avoid giving anything to my mom...but she's seen some of it. She wrote a book once but she refuses to let me see it.Andrew Rosenberghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09215333688753781447noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1111229284977476511.post-17021640880543340332010-08-29T19:19:19.742-07:002010-08-29T19:19:19.742-07:00First of all, love the picture. That's just aw...First of all, love the picture. That's just awesome. Secondly, yes and yes. Glad you did a post. It's hard to remember this stuff sometimes.Tina Lynnhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05914428134837892539noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1111229284977476511.post-57794234988955981492010-08-30T10:45:37.638-07:002010-08-30T10:45:37.638-07:00Great advice, Andrew. Especially coming from a cr...Great advice, Andrew. Especially coming from a critter who gave me some of the best critique comments ever. <br><br>As a critter it is our job to give constructive feedback without attacking or providing a rewrite in our voice and style. We must remember that these manuscripts are not our manuscripts. Rather, we are simply priveleged enough to read a piece of someone's soul and let them know how it affects us. <br><br>As the writer it is our job to graciously accept any and all feedback we are given--even if we disagree 100%. Even if we feel the hairs raise on the back of our necks and our fangs start to emerge. We can learn something from every comment, no matter how great or small, or how seemingly right or wrong. Just knowing there is another perspective should teach us something about the way we write and the impact of our words.<br><br>Great post.catwoodshttp://catwoods.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.com